Connecting with CFOs to Achieve Sales Goals

Brent Kelly:

Welcome to the Agent Leader Podcast. My name is Brent Kelly. I am your host. Thanks so much for joining me on this episode. I have a fantastic guest with me today. Not only is she a wealth of information in the insurance industry, but I also the pleasure of being a teammate with this wonderful individual. Kari Glennon, our senior consultant at the Sitkins Group, joins us today to talk about a super important topic. Kari, before we get into that topic, welcome to the Agent Leader podcast.

Kari Glennon:

Thank you, Brent. I'm super excited to be here.

Brent Kelly:

Awesome. Well, before we get into the content, I've got to do a quick teaser. As always, I've done this on other episodes. If you are interested in learning more about what we all do and what things that Kari and I talk about, go to sitkins.com. In fact, we have a transformation scorecard that you can go check out. Go to sitkins.com/scorecard. It's a super easy way for you and your agency to see where you are today and get a better grasp on where is it you really want to go, identifying some of the barriers and challenge. So go to Sitkins.com/scorecard. So with that, let's get into the meat of what we're going to be talking about today. And to set this up, Kari and I have many conversations because we worked together and training programs and coaching calls and different discussions that's going on in the industry.

And I was asking Kari, I'm like, Kari, what's something out there that I think a lot of agencies and producers may be missing? And she said, Brent, there's oftentimes a missing person of a company that really doesn't, we don't get in deep with this person, or we don't have the right conversations with this person. And man, does it make a big difference? And who is that person? Well, it's the CFO, right? Kari, the Chief Financial Officer. And so we're going to unpack this today, and I've got a number of questions I want to ask Kari about her philosophies and what she's learned, and of course the impact of this. But I'm going to start out with about as basic, as basic it gets. Why is this a big deal, Kari? Why would it matter that an agency and certainly a producer, needs to have a better relationship with this CFO role?

Kari Glennon:

Great question To start with. It is a big one. So when you think about the role of a CFO, I think where there is this old stereotype of a stodgy person in the corner office sitting back, counting their beans, right? And frankly, nothing could be further from the truth. Today, effective CFOs are incredibly strategic in an organization. In fact, a good CFO is going to be somebody who recognizes the fact that they have financial targets that the organization has to attain and budgets they have to stay within while attaining them. So CFOs, they'll have a good strategic feel or an idea, and they will help influence their peers, their colleagues on decisions that will help that particular division achieve goals staying within those budgets. For example, if it's an HR person and there is some sort of initiative to take place with their workforce, a CFO is a good person to weigh in with the HR person on that.

A sales leader, a good CFO is going to know what are the strategic initiatives from the sales team and have a conversation with the chief revenue officer, chief sales officer, about which direction to go again, because they understand the goals financially and the budgets that they're trying to stay within. So to be able to be connected to the person who is the ultimate decision maker, who has the biggest fiduciary responsibility to the success of an organization, that's the person that we as producers out in the marketplace should be seeking to get in with to build relationships with, ask the right questions.

Brent Kelly:

As you were saying that, Kari, I had a mentor years ago, leadership is influence nothing more and nothing less, right? And it's been said many times, and I think that's what I'm hearing, the CFO role. And of course it varies. It's funny you said that. Even for me, I'm like, oh, CFO is that bean counter and they're counting money, but how important and involved they are in strategy and influence and being an advocate in some of these things. And obviously if I'm hearing you right, Kari, if we don't potentially have their eye and their ear, we may have a big problem on our hands.

Kari Glennon:

That's true. Yeah. Agreed.

Brent Kelly:

So here's something, because you mentioned being counter, we're kind of both laughing about it, and maybe this isn't true for everybody, but I think sometimes I think a controller and a CFO sometimes get misconstrued, and maybe we don't understand that. So maybe unpack the differences.

Kari Glennon:

Yeah, I think that's a really good point. I've worked with producers who've said, yeah, I got in at this organization and I have an appointment with a controller. And I'm not saying that that's not a good person to speak with. Generally, a controller will report up to a higher financial decision maker or influencer within the organization. And I think the easiest way to describe it is to give an example. So when you're speaking with, or a producer is out in the field and speaking with a controller, a controller's role is much more tactical than strategic. And you probably would hear a question like this coming from a controller, "how much can we save in the next year if we raise our deductible?"

So raising a deductible is a tactic that can be used in order to have an immediate impact on, okay, maybe we don't pay as much in premium because we have a large deductible. We're taking on some of that risk ourselves. But is that a long-term strategic solution for a benefits plan or your overall risk and GL policy, right? Things of that nature. No know, but if you're speaking with a CFO, a CFO might ask a question that's more around, okay, we recognize that our premiums are going up every year. Is there a conversation we can have around a more creative funding mechanism for our program? If they're looking long-term and they have say, liquid cash that they can spend, they might even be able to have a conversation about captives. Maybe on the benefit side, again, much more strategic long-term type questions. You might hear from a CFO where a controller is going to be more tactical, how do I save money now? Right? The term controller there for a reason, they're controlling those dollars. So different conversations, different questions. Again, leading you to why the better relationship if you're going to start somewhere in a company, start at the CFO if you can.

Brent Kelly:

Alright, hold that thought. I want to come back to that and go a level deeper. Okay, just one comment on this, but I thought it was great what you said there, and I heard this week, maybe it's one of our programs or something that I was doing with an agency, but it's like how do people look at risk management or the insurance program or the benefits package? Is it just simply an expense or is it an investment? Right? And again, you could look at it in different ways, but what I'm hearing from you is obviously a true CFO that's strategic sees the bigger picture and how this all plays in where a controller's going to be exactly right. How do I control these costs and everything is dollar value. So that's a huge difference. And again, I think it can be easy to overlap or go, oh, that's kind of the same person or the same role and it's not. So, alright. I said to come back to that thought. So it's interesting, I think, I know you've experienced this, I see this as well that oftentimes producers tend to start or to start, which is okay with risk manager or maybe it's the HR manager, but I think there's a bigger play here with the CFO an opportunity. So share my thoughts on why it might be a better option to go there first.

Kari Glennon:

Yeah, again, I think your HR manager, your risk manager, vital roles in an organization, I think much more tactical day-to-day implementation and the carryout of tasks and initiatives. So if you happen to get in at that level, at that mid-management level, it's not necessarily a bad thing. They are decision influencers when it comes to the things that we as insurance producers and agents are bringing to the table. However, I've seen this happen before. You find somebody who's sort of at the end of their career, maybe they're on their glide path to retirement, and it's like, do I really want to think about implementing a new program, bringing in a new carrier, changing things? That's a heavy lift for me. I'm not really incented to do that. And so you get stymied and if you're at that level and you try and do the endo, go around them and go to the CFO, you might get a CFO who picks up the phone and says, Hey, I think you should really talk to this person. And it's like, huh, oh, the person I blew off. It's pretty tough to get their buy-in now. So you can sort of shoot yourself in the foot. But secondly, again, they may not be seeing that big picture and they may be shying away from a solution that's really good for the organization because they see it as a heavy lift for their team or themselves versus, wow, this is really good. It's worth that extra effort. Let's do this for the financial health of the company as well as for our employees.

Brent Kelly:

Yeah, it it's super helpful. I'm sure for the listeners out there, you think about this. I know I find it fascinating. And again, part of it is the path of least resistance works for a while until you get through. And like I said, I like the endo come back around. It's like, oh, now you talk to me. Right? Being cognizant of, again, the importance of that role and that communication from the beginning and really understanding how that decision is made and who's influential. And of course don't hurt their feelings,

Kari Glennon:

Right? Absolutely. At the end of the day, we're all human.

Brent Kelly:

Yeah, you don't like me? No, you don't like me. No, it's important. So here's what I want to do. I want to take it a step further because one thing we talk all the time with our producers and teams about, there's demographics and there's psychographics, and both are important. Demographics, location, size, we got to know these things. Psychographics is to be so fascinating. How do people think and maybe even different, what do they think about? So I think this to me is like, and you're always trying to build rapport and credibility and of course relationships with people. It's what? It's a relationship business. Well, same is true with the CFO. So maybe you can help unpack for some of those that aren't as CFO fluent on, what do they think about, what do they listen to? What do they like? Give me the CFO brand.

Kari Glennon:

So I think there's two sides to this really. First, as a producer going out trying to open the door at the CFO level, we talked about sometimes it's easier to get in maybe at a mid-management level. So I'm going to wave the flag here for referrals. Always ask for those referrals. Here's the referral banner, I'm waving it now. If you can ever get the introduction, that's obviously the way to go because obviously c-suite is tougher to get into. So using your network and your influence to get in, that's definitely the easiest way. When you are thinking about the connection that you want to make with a CFO, I think there's a few things. One, just like you said, what do they, I think of them as a whole human, I guess the whole being. What do they think about, what do they think about, what do they care about in their heart and what do they do?

I think of their hands, head, heart, hands, think, feel, do. And I think by thinking about them from that perspective, it helps a producer in putting together, just like you said, not just the demographic, but the psychographics of this person. And then to prepare for a conversation with somebody like that. I'm a huge fan of making sure you know what CFOs are consuming in the way of content business data I currently and have for years, subscribe to cfo.com. If you've spent any time with me, you've probably heard me bring it up in sessions in sales meetings with producers. And here's why I'm a fan. It's unbelievably current. It's a free subscription online, and right at the top of the nav bar, when you go to cfo.com, there's actually a tab for risk management and there is a tab for human capital. So whether you're in the property casualty side of the business or in the employee benefits side of the business, there is content that's current, it's new, it's relevant.

And how better to prepare yourself than to consume some of the information that CFOs are prior to a conversation with them. It will help you understand some of the things they think about these days, some of the things they do that they're responsible for. And then of course the things that they care about. Because these are people who are writing content for those individuals. Additionally, by having a subscription to it, just being in the know, you might come across an article and go, oh my gosh, that reminds me of, and you can definitely share an article. It's a nice touch point that you can send out and reach out to a current client, CFO or perhaps a potential client prospect.

Brent Kelly:

I love the head, the heart, the hand, which really could certainly can be used anywhere. But I mean as a perspective to think about that with the CFO, and I love that. What do they think about, what do they care about? What do they do? And I think there's a lot to this, and you may kind of already answered the question about connections, about connection, but I don't know if this is a piece of advice per se, but if I've got a producer listening to this podcast or I am a producer listening to this podcast, and you say, gosh, Kari, it seems like your stuff here. It seems like you've worked with some producers, you've connected with CFOs. What can I do? What should I do? What are some steps I could take that would make sense for me to navigate these conversations and these connections?

Kari Glennon:

Absolutely. So I think that many producers overlook the fact that your number one person who can help you improve your skills in this area of speaking and connecting with CFOs, they sit in your office right now, that is your CFO. We all have a CFO, and I've worked with agencies who have set something up and maybe it's once a month, maybe it's twice a month, Friday afternoon, and it's brown bag it day, right? Everybody brown bags their lunch, and you go into a boardroom and the CFO is there and the CFO is there to listen, bounce things off of me, provide feedback. I probably wouldn't buy from you because get good feedback or I really appreciated this question. It would've been even better if you'd asked me X, Y, or Z. Give some examples of things that you need to talk about and ask them some questions.

I've had people say, yeah, my CFO said you didn't touch on this one area that's so important to me. And oh my gosh, how could I have not thought of that? I will tell you this. At our agency before we sold, we used to jokingly say that our CFO had the best BS sniffer in the agency. And we invited her to do these types of sessions specifically, and she would be very honest and candid. And I want to remind listeners, if you are a producer or you manage producers, remember, low risk practice is done in an environment that's safe. It's safe within the four walls of your organization, even when you bring in your CFO, because everybody who's at the table is gunning for you to be the best you can be. Everybody wants you to get better. So at some point you're going to do something foolish or trip over your tongue or whatever it's going to be. Do it in the safety of the confines of your office versus out in the field where you can't retract what came out of your mouth. It's out there. So I would say definitely use that resource and maybe don't have him or her brown bag it, maybe bribe them with a lunch, go buy their sandwich for them and get them to come to your boardroom and share and pick their brain. I think that you have somebody right at your fingertips who's going to help you.

Brent Kelly:

You mean they're not just waiting there just to for something to do to brown bag lunch on a Friday? Yeah. All joking aside, and this isn't a hundred percent true, but I think it's a pretty high percentage. And again, maybe there's studies on it, but if you would go to people in an organization who are typically above you, so to speak, from a leadership position or even whatever peers that you work with, and if I would say to you, Kari, one of the things I really want to do is I want to improve my skill and my craft in this particular area, terminology we use that all the time, I want to become that best version possible. What does that look like? I would really appreciate if I could spend some time with you to learn and understand your role, your position, how you think, what matters to you, things that you do, things you're concerned about, so I can have better conversations and relationship with those in the marketplace. If I came to you with that, it's really hard to be like, "no, peon, go away. Don't waste my time." I mean, first of all, would you agree with that?

Kari Glennon:

What a compliment. I mean to say to somebody, I value your opinion and want to learn from you, that's a huge compliment. And at the end of the day, I would say generally speaking, humans want to help one another, especially when you're on the same team or you like somebody you want to want to help. So yes, it's a big compliment. And I don't see somebody saying, Joe, go away. Right? No, I don't think that would happen. I mean, somebody might have a busy schedule and say, I can't do it this week, but can we schedule it for _. Of course that's to be expected, but I can't imagine somebody being completely dismissed. No.

Brent Kelly:

Yeah. I mean, that's been my experience in all kinds of stuff. And of course, if you come with authenticity and you really mean it and all this, yes, it's one of those where quite frankly, not a lot of people do those things. So it's pretty rare that those people get those questions, but when they do, it's like, oh wow, someone here who really wants, it's like when if you're a teacher or whatever, you're like, wow, there's a few. I always think about, do you get flooded with after hours questions in your class? No. In fact, if one person shows up to ask more questions, I'm socked. And so you think about this is that they really don't get that stuff very often. It is a compliment, and more importantly, it's just, it's part of your growth and development. And this is bigger picture. We've talked about this on the podcast before.

I've done it like the easy thing to do, the super easy thing to do is to show up, throw up and blow up. The term we say all the time, you just go somewhere. You show up, you haven't really practiced or prepared. You throw up all over people by saying stupid stuff, and then you go home and get mad and blow up. Versus the harder thing to do is to do those things that Kari just mentioned, right? Say, Hey, listen, I'm looking to do this. I mean, those aren't easy things to do. And by the way, even though we know it's low risk practice and we preach it, it doesn't mean it makes you feel better at the time when you screw things up. There's a challenge to that. But as we say all the time, and this is probably the 15th time I've said it on this podcast, or Roger said it Kari's going to start saying it because we always say it is, you're going to look stupid someplace. Where do you want it to be? And this idea of, you're going to look stupid someplace if you're going to look stupid with a CFO, look stupid with your own CFO or look stupid with a friend, that's a CFO, I don't know. Right? Do those kind of things versus going out there because not only does it cost you money and opportunity, it can cost you and your agency credibility.

Kari Glennon:

A hundred percent.

Brent Kelly:

Alright, I'll now step off my soapbox for a second. Kari, I'll leave this very open. Anything you'd want to add just in terms of this relationship? Anything we didn't discuss? Any question I didn't ask you that I should have in regards to CFO relationships?

Kari Glennon:

No, I think you've really touched on it. I would say in the spirit of relentless preparation, make sure that you're spending time building your business acumen. And that means make sure you're reading things that are going to help you be able to have those peer-to-peer conversations with the CFO, the conversation isn't always about insurance, it's often about the business as a whole, the marketplace, the economic climate. So being prepared to have those conversations that lead into the business itself and then to the insurance is really important. So I would just really encourage you to spend some time there, put it on your calendar because we know if it's not on the calendar, it doesn't get done. But that's part of what you should be doing to be your very best when it comes to going out in the marketplace and connecting with CFOs.

Brent Kelly:

Yeah, great advice. Again, it's just a thing that kind of gets lost in the shuffle. And I wrote something down. These are my final thoughts and we'll wrap up here. Okay. Again, this is true with the CFO, but this is true really anywhere. And it's like when you talk to someone of that level, and this comes to business acumen, this is my opinion, they expect you to know the things that you should know, but they'll connect with you when you show that you can understand and relate to the things that they truly care about. And I think that's part of it, is this is my insurance or benefits stuff and we go on this thing versus, wow, I connect with you because I can go deeper because I've done the work that other people won't do. So Kari, this is super helpful. And again, I think we've had some side conversations and worked with agencies and producers and it's like, yeah, I really thought about that.

So I really hope this episode, it would add value to you and your agency, your producers, Kari, because you did such a great job, and I knew you would. I'm going to have you back a lot more. So find some more topics to talk about, round table, some discussion. There's a lot of things going on in the marketplace, and by the way, if there's a topic or an area you'd like for us to cover, let me know. Reach out to us. Please do that. And we'd love to have a conversation with you. Again, you can learn more about our overall philosophies at www.sitkins.com. Take the scorecard at sitkins.com/scorecard. Pretty straightforward name. And with that, I wish you and your agency all the best and your success. Thanks for listening, everybody. Take care.