Decisions Determine Your Destiny

Roger Sitkins joins Brent Kelly for part two of our four-part series on major aspects of insurance agencies. This episode focuses on selling, sales, and agency improvement for producers. If you are looking to boost your sales and your productivity in the agency, this is a great podcast for you to take a listen to, because "Nothing happens until something is sold".

Brent Kelly:

Welcome to The Agent Leader Podcast. My name is Brent Kelly, your host. Thanks so much for joining me on another episode. So glad to have you with us. And as always, the purpose of The Agent Leader Podcast is to help you, the independent insurance agency leader, to gain clarity, to build consistency, and to make a commitment to become your best version possible.

Brent Kelly:

And if you listened to our previous recording, my last podcast, we had Roger Sitkins with us, and I mentioned it was going to be part of a four-part series that I'll be interviewing and having discussions with Roger Sitkins on major aspects of insurance agencies. And last week we talked about going deeper in your agency and the four Rs focus. If you haven't listened to that podcast, make sure you take some time to go back and listen to that podcast. And today's focus is going to be around selling, sales, agency improvement for producers. So if you are looking to boost your sales and your productivity in the agency, well this is a great podcast for you to take a listen to. And as I mentioned, I have Roger Sitkins with me. So Roger, welcome again, welcome back to session two or a part of this four session series of The Agent Leader Podcast.

Roger Sitkins:

Brent, it's great to be back with you again and hope everybody is having a great week so far. We're going to talk about selling more and there's a saying I heard a long time ago that I absolutely love, "Nothing happens until something is sold". And that's what we're going to talk about.

Brent Kelly:

I love it. And this is a quick reminder as well. As we continue to barrel through, I don't have a better word to use Roger, of 2021. I don't want to be that person. I can't believe the time has gone, but we're already halfway through almost this year. We just wrapped up another producer camp very successfully this week. I've got another producer camp going, but if you want to be part of the transformation experience with our team at Sitkins and be part of our agency network to sell more, to retain more, to earn more in your agency, go check out our programs. www.sitkins.com/programs and see how you, if your agency is a fit for our upcoming programs this summer, as well as into the fall of 2021. So with that, Roger, let's talk about sales. You good with that?

Roger Sitkins:

Absolutely.

Brent Kelly:

Well, I just want to ask... These are some questions that were on my mind and things that I have thoughts about, but I know in talking with you and sharing some ideas with you, you've got some great insight into this. But I just want to talk about selling overall, I guess holistically is the best word I could use. Where do you see agencies just in general miss the mark on their sales process? Where did they go wrong?

Roger Sitkins:

Well I've often heard through the years when you talk to somebody, you'll say "Well, how big is your agency now?". Multiples of a million, whether it's 1 million, 2 million, 5 million, 10 million or whatever. I'll say "Where do you want to be in three or four years?". And I always hear this, "Oh, I'm going to be twice as big". So it might've taken you 20 years to get to where you are, but now you want to be twice as big. Same thing with a producer, "I want to be twice as big". I'll say "So how are you going to do that?" "We're going to sell insurance". "Well, how are you going to do that?" "We're going to sell a lot more insurance". "Yeah, but how are you going to do it? How are you going to do it?". And it's always amazing to me. And I shouldn't be after all these years, but even talking to some large national brokers, large regional brokers, good size local brokers and agents.

Roger Sitkins:

When you say "What's your selling process, what do you do?". And they give me a blank stare. And then they just start talking about "Well, we meet with people and then we have a conversation and we look at their policies. And then we might do a gap analysis and then we'll give them a quote". And I say "That's not a process at all". But the key to it is that even not having a process, you can be semi-successful. We talk about this all the time. This is a great business. You can be semi-successful. Compared to the world, you're successful. But compared to your local neighbors, your peers, your siblings, whatever, they look at you, "Boy, that person is really successful. Nice house, nice car. Kids are in the best schools. They give to their church. They give to their community", and whatever it may be.

Roger Sitkins:

But at the end of the day, they're not really on track for financial freedom. So what happens Brent, is I don't think there's a pain point. Maybe the pain point comes way too late when they realize "I just kind of showed up and did stuff and I was winging it". And we've talked about this before, winging it versus winning. And they wing it and they can be semi-successful. And so they really don't have to have one to be semi-successful. Now, when we look at the super successful ones, the top 2% of agents and agencies we talk about, to a person, they have a unique selling process that they follow.

Brent Kelly:

Yeah. As you were saying that Roger, what hit me, I've had many of these conversations as well and certainly learning from you, is that it seems like the agencies plateau out or level out quicker when they obviously don't have a plan or a process in place. And I think to your point, is that sometimes that plateau or the leveling out process is at least high enough to live a decent life. Everything's okay. It's not great, but it's okay or good.

Brent Kelly:

And the bad analogy as you know Roger, I love my sports analogies, but what kind of got me too, is you think about a grade school or junior high basketball team, and they could have one player that's just really, really good. And you can get okay on one player that's really, really good. But at some point, as you try to go higher and you try to send a little bit, you realize that other teams have teams. First of all, they're a team. They have a playbook, they have a process, they have a strategy. And at some point, just because you have maybe one talented individual, sometimes as the agency leader, you run out of capacity and as you try to go higher and higher, you simply hit a wall and you're done.

Brent Kelly:

And I think that's what we see with agencies. If as you said, they try to wing it. And they can do okay by it, but they're not able to perform anywhere close to the level they could. And I know from my vantage point and yours too Roger, as coaches, it becomes frustrating to see agencies that you see have this great... Here's the word, potential, but they never take that next step. You have any thoughts on that?

Roger Sitkins:

Well, the word potential has always bothered me ever since going all the way back to when I played football in college. And the only time they used the word potential is when someone didn't hit their potential. "That person really had potential, that person could have been great". And let's face it, every producer that's ever been hired in our industry had tremendous potential. "Oh boy, she's got great potential, he's got great potential". You never hire somebody where you go "They really have some pretty crappy potential, let's give them a chance and look at it". And so what happens is they get in the agencies, they realize that the bar is very, very low in our industry, which we've talked about before. And they wing it and they do some look, copy, quote, and pray, that old way of selling. And they give some quotes and 20% of the people buy and they start committing to clicks, pings, rings, and dings. And a couple other people buy and they do some order taking.

Roger Sitkins:

But they're not really differentiating. And then they plateau. They plateau at that $350,000 to $400,000 range of gross commission as a producer. And again, compared to the world, they're in the top 2% if not 1% of earners in the world and certainly in the top 5% in America. And so they're doing pretty good, but they just leave so much potential out there. Every producer, every agency clearly should be growing by 25% or more. Now that's going to shock people. It's going to take discipline to do that. But the potential is there if they'll just make some decisions, which is something you and I talked about before we got online here.

Roger Sitkins:

When I think about the best agency principals, I had dinner with one of our great agencies last night. He and his family were in town and we went down to Fort Myers Beach. And just looking at what they were doing and the growth that they've had, and they're going to hit $7 million of commission income this year and they've had tremendous growth. But at the end of the day, I just realized that what that agency principal did and what his key people have done, is they made a decision. And every great thing you've done has been based upon, "I finally made a decision to do this". Which is the commitment we talk about. So once they get to that decision process, they say "Now, I'm going to do it". And so people are either dabbling and being okay, or they've made a decision, then they actually do what they said they were going to do. So I think that's a huge differentiator. I don't think, I know it is.

Brent Kelly:

Okay. Here's a question I'll ask the audience then, the podcast listeners. When it comes to a sales process, in particular a plan, are you going to be a dabbler or are you going to make a decision to have one? That ultimately is one of the questions you have to ask yourself. The other visual I had is I think a big part of this is that team approach. Obviously with individual producers, they're going to have some unique skillsets and backgrounds and ways they do things, but this idea that are we functioning as a team? I'm just trying to imagine a bunch of a pretty decent musicians that all sit down and play their own piece of music versus playing one together. It's not going to sound very good. It's like "Well, they're all pretty good,” but they're not unified.

Brent Kelly:

And that's a big part of agencies. They don't have a unified plan or playbook and everyone's off doing their own thing. And like you said, I love that, that is so powerful, is they're dabbling. They're not making a decision. So that's something that if you're not writing that down, that's a writer-downer. So make sure you do that. One thing that I think of Roger, I'm going to ask you next, is around the area within a sales process of differentiation.

Brent Kelly:

And I've shared this story in some of our live trainings that we do, that one of my favorite conversations I had was a very successful agency leader on the East Coast. I was out doing a speaking engagement a few years ago, and we were just having a conversation over dinner. I said "What's been one thing that your agency has done that's really helped you have the level of success that you've had?". And he said "Well, I'll simplify this. I just look around and look what every other agency does, and I just do the opposite". And we kind of laughed and it was tongue in cheek. But the point of it is, is that if you look around and if you're really honest, most agencies, they look the same, they talk the same stuff, they walk alike. And there isn't a clear differentiation. So why do you think Roger, that most agencies look and sound like every other agency?

Roger Sitkins:

Because they can be semi-successful doing that. Someone says "Why should I do business with you?". They give them the generic five, which we talk about all the time that always starts with "We give great service" and then the last one is "We've got the best people". And everybody says the same thing. Think about this. If you've actually heard as an agency or as an individual producer, you've heard of a prospect, a suspect, certainly not a future ideal client say "Yeah, you insurance people are all the same. We're just trying to keep our agent honest" and "Yeah, we'd like a quote. We'd like a quote". And you may remember that I always say in our producer programs, when someone says "I'd like a quote". I say "Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their country". That's a quote.

Roger Sitkins:

But if you want a presentation of solutions and best options, let's get together. But Brent, it just comes down to they haven't decided to be great. They haven't decided to differentiate. They haven't decided to be the best version possible. And because they can just do the basics, hold themselves to a pretty low standard, they'll do okay. But it just frustrates me, and for the 97th time, they're going to be semi-successful. But end of it all, and everybody eventually leaves whether they want to or not, they're going to have a bunch of regrets. Rather than saying "How can we differentiate? What is it that we can do that will raise the bar? What are the things that we can provide to our clients? Where do we add value that others aren't doing?".

Roger Sitkins:

And at the end of the day, it's not necessarily the product and price. Those things kind of balance out. It's what's the additional value that you as an individual bring or you and your team bring to that client? Whether it's personalized, small commercial, large commercial, benefits, life, financial services, whatever. What value do you bring them? Where they say "Gee, I never got that before. I've never seen that before. No one's ever helped me measure that before. No one ever made me aware of how I could impact it". And it's sad in a way to me because people are leaving so much... There's the potential word... So much potential success on the table. Doing okay, but the people we deal with decided a long time ago, it's not okay to be okay. It's not okay to be average.

Brent Kelly:

I don't know if what I'm going to say is controversial. I don't think it's controversial anymore. Maybe some people would think so. But I truly believe, and certainly if I were out hitting the market as a producer today, I would 100% or 1000% specialize. I would be known for something. And to me, whether it's an industry, a class of business, certain demographic. But I think one of the things that we see, to your point Roger, as you just said, of why agencies and producers don't look and sound different is they have really nothing to look and sound different around. They're stuck into "We're a full service agency that offers prompt service". Okay.

Roger Sitkins:

Save you money.

Brent Kelly:

Yeah, and we'll save you money. Well, the frustration is if you don't really understand and go deep... There's the deep word, the acronym that many of you heard before, delivering excellence in every process, in an industry or class of business where you know their business. You know the things that they want. Maybe in some cases, even more than they do, if you really get deep into it, then you're not able to ask the questions or position yourself in the right way. And we see stats all the time about the producers and agencies that win. They're specialists. So-

Roger Sitkins:

What was the one that we saw recently where it was the top 90-some producers under 40 years old?

93% were specialists. And they only had a few of them that said "What do you do?" "General". All of them have "I specialize in roofers. I specialize in manufacturing. I specialize in tech companies". And something that we share all the time, you look at any profession, any profession, specialists always make more money than general practitioners. Period. Specialists always make more money than general practitioners. So what do you want to be now?

Roger Sitkins:

And some of the markets out there, some of the towns, you might have to have two, three, or four specialties. Something that we've seen 80-90% of the time. When we challenge agency leaders on this and say "You already have some specialties".  And they'll say "Well no, we don't". I'll say "Look, I'll tell you what. Go back and just do a survey of an individual purchaser's book of business or your agency overall. And tell me what like-type of risks that you have". And they'll come back and go "Wow, we didn't realize we already write 12 restaurants".

Roger Sitkins:

Maybe that's not the best example right now. Or "We write 12 tech firms" or "We write 12 engineering firms", whatever it may be. But what they realize is, if they already have a foundation, number one, they must have a good program and product and pricing. Number two, they must be able to talk their language or at least know some things about it. Number three, they have a referral base to work off of. But they say "Oh no, we're just generalists". No, you are a specialist. You just haven't... Here's the "decide" word again. You just didn't decide. Number one, identify what specialties you already have in your agency or your book of business. Number two, you decide to go deep.

Roger Sitkins:

As you know Brent, I've been dealing with a major water damage claim in my condominium that I live in. And we were actually out for six months. The agent that had the association itself got fired because of the way they reacted to the program. And what we did is we... And of course I'm on the insurance committee, what a surprise. We brought on some people to look at the programs that we had. And this young lady came in who knows the condo association business. She wowed me and I'm pretty critical about things at times. I expect a lot from people. She wowed me with her knowledge. She wowed me with the gaps in our coverage. She wowed me with the services that we weren't receiving.

Roger Sitkins:

And the previous agent had the account for a little over five years. It was $180,000-some in premium. So he was making good money. And we billed over to her right away based upon her expertise in what she knew. And the other guy just sounded like a general practitioner. When are people going to wake up and say "I can either be a general practitioner or I can decide to be a specialist"? And again, in some areas, you might have to have two or three specialties. It's okay. Just don't look at the SIC code and say "I'm a specialist in everything". No, you're not. You're a general practitioner.

Brent Kelly:

Yeah. Roger, just obviously the word "decide" has become a little bit of a theme in our conversation. But it's so powerful. Just listening to you there, going back, are you going to decide to do this, or dabble in this? And what hit me is that dabbling is comfortable because you're not really making a commitment. You're just "Oh, I'm dabbling a little in this and dabble a little of that, and we'll be all things". And yeah, that's okay. And you're not claiming anything, so there's no commitment you have to keep.

Brent Kelly:

But when you decide, that's I think where many people go "Well, I would decide". I really could see. Just think about this for a second. I gave 93% of those producers are specialists. We see this in our Elite 50 group, we see this with our best agencies. If you look at any reports, you look at some of the Reagan reports, it's right in front of you. Specialists do better. They have a competitive advantage. They make more money. Yet so many agencies and producers go "Well yeah, but I'm just going to dabble". And it blows my mind. But as I'm sitting there going "Why is that?". It's because it's comfortable. Do you agree with that?

Roger Sitkins:

The word that jumps out when I was listening to you there is there are certain agencies and certainly producers that are lifestyle. That's what they do. They're all like "I've got a pretty good lifestyle and I got a nice agency". And it's more of a lifestyle. And I think you have to make a decision... By the way, if you don't make a decision, the decision is made for you. But I think you've got to decide whether you want to just have a lifestyle where you float along and you make decent money, or you have a professional career. As we all know, professionals make more money than amateurs all the time. So when you decide that this is my career, I'm going to put the time in anyway, why not be great at it? Why not just absolutely commit to doing the right things? Because the amount of time you spend is the same. It's just where you're spending it.

Roger Sitkins:

And so to me, this is another blinding flash of the obvious. Why in the heck wouldn't I finally decide what I want to be when I grow up and then grow up? And then go do it. And so I can dabble and I can finally decide, and then I have to do what I said I was going to do. It's pretty simple. Something I was sharing with you this morning before we got started recording was that so many people have to-do lists. And they have way too many things on it. They're chasing way too many things, the trivial many versus the vital few. And so blinding flash of the obvious for me this morning is rather than have a to-do list, why don't you just have a do list? And it becomes a non-optional. I think it works.

Brent Kelly:

Yeah. We both have been fans of Tony Robbins and most people know that. But as you said that again, I listened to him a few weeks ago, I think you were listening to him this morning, you said. One of the things he said that is so true is that "How many softeners do you have of, well I should do this, we could do that. I might do this". And those are called dabble words, that are "Well, that would be a good idea" versus "I must do this".

Roger Sitkins:

Well, I'll give you a good example of that. You know the story. But several years ago, a couple of decades ago, my wife, Stephanie and I went to a Tony Robbins event. And we wound up walking on fire. And we didn't dabble. When it was your turn, I must, I must. And you walked across burning coals. "Huh, amazing. It worked". I used to do 6-4 by the way. But it worked and there was no dabbling. Once you made that commitment and once your mindset was correct, you had the right beliefs, the right state you were in, you walked across burning coals. We didn't get burned. Pretty cool.

Brent Kelly:

Yeah. There's so many analogies to just having this conversation of, in fact if you dabble, that's when you usually get hurt. So that's true in sports and different things. You either go all in or don't. Don't play the game that way. So here's the last thing I want to bring up to the audience with the time that we have, Roger, is you have mentioned in the last podcast and certainly to me and some people that have been part of our trainings, of a new, powerful Sitkins acronym, which is MBA. And people are like "Imagine that, another Sitkins acronym". But MBA, which is Mastering the Basic Activities. Mastering the Basic Activities. And so often that the basics are overlooked or "Well that just the basics". But people aren't doing it. And so I guess if we're talking about sales, selling overall, what are some of the basics? Some of the things that agencies simply aren't doing, that they just overlook and take for granted. But quite honestly, it's been a stumbling block for them.

Roger Sitkins:

There's so many of them and they go everywhere. But some of the basics, number one, we've already talked about, you've got to specialize. That's basic. Number two, you've got to start identifying what future ideal clients look like, not suspects or prospects, and know exactly what you're going after. Some people refer to it as your avatar. What are you going after? And not only the type of account, the size of account, et cetera, but who are the actual names that you can start using? Understand the power of 80/20 and use it because it's real simple. 20% of your customers are 80% of your revenue. Got it. The top 5% are 50%. The next 15% are 30%. So you've got 20% of the customers giving you 80% of your revenue. What are you going to replicate? Bottom 50% of your customers or 10% of your revenue? What do you want to replicate?

Roger Sitkins:

So use the power of it. You’ve got to get the high performance teams. Not high maintenance teams, but high performance teams. That's something that we're talking about with our Elite 50 Sales Mastery program in about three weeks from now, is how do you turbocharge that high-performance team? But just getting the high-performance team that says "Hey, the number one thing we've got to do is you as a producer have got to be in the green zone".

Roger Sitkins:

Last night at dinner, we were talking about this. And the agency has some incentives in place for their account managers so that when the producers write new business, they make some more money because now they're handling more business. And they are at the point, of agencies where the account managers literally say to the producers on Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday, if it's between 9:00 and 3:00, "What are you doing in the office? What are you doing in the office? You're better off just being out there in the public than sitting here causing problems".

Roger Sitkins:

So it's that strong division between sales and service. And then I guess finally, as far as basic, basic, basic things, Mastering Basic Activities, are you doing the things that earn, and in fact generate, referrals and introductions?

Roger Sitkins:

We talk about this all the time and people say "That's a pretty good idea". But then I'll say "You know what, let me ambush you right now, ask me for a referral". "What?" "Ask me for a referral". "You don't know anybody who wants to buy insurance, do you?". That wasn't really very conversational and comfortable. That would not inspire me to give you a referral.

Roger Sitkins:

And people laugh about this and say "Oh, that's basic". Prove to me you've mastered it. Prove to me you can ask for a referral. Prove to me you even know a 30 second commercial other than "I'm in the insurance business, you want to get a quote?". Or sitting there aggressively waiting for the clicks, pings, rings, and dings to happen so you can give a practice quote. So these are some of the basic things, or 20 others. But if people would just decide, not dabble, but decide "Hey, those are four or five things we're going to master".

Roger Sitkins:

You mentioned we had the group finish yesterday. We had over 100 producers in the program. It was their 8th session. And it was so amazing to get the feedback forms from them, electronically of course. And all the things they're saying and the ratings and just blew them away. What was interesting to me is so many of them decided to do the right thing. So many of them decided to master the basic activities. And to me, mastery is number one, you could survive an ambush.

Roger Sitkins:

Number two, you know it so well, you could teach it to others. You could be the disciple, if you will, that talks about that system, that process, that procedure. And you become a role model for everybody on your team. As an agency leader, you can actually do what you're asking others to do. So you could never get blamed, like when I say to my kids "Hey your room's a little messy" and they say "Oh yeah, go look at the garage. The garage doesn't look so good either". We've got to do what we said we were going to do. But again, this theme Brent, of you decide what you're going to do. Stop dabbling. Start identifying the vital few things that you are going to do exceedingly well, that will become part of your agency's DNA or your own DNA. And then do them at levels others will never do it. Period.

Brent Kelly:

As I just listen to you there Roger, some of these things you mentioned. But I guess three questions I would ask the listeners from everything that you said and the notes that I was taking is, when it comes to you and your sales process, your selling system, as just being a sales organization. Number one is, are you going to be a result agency or an activity-based agency? You just mentioned on there that the agency that you talked with last night, they're a results-based agency. And that goes for their entire agency. They all want to focus on results, not just "Boy, we did a bunch of stuff". Was it effective? "No, but we did a bunch of stuff".

Brent Kelly:

You mentioned earlier, are you an agency that's going to commit to being a professional agency or are you going to be an amateur agency? And it's not to take a shot at a lifestyle agency. If that's what you want to do, hey, good for you. And again, that's fine. But as far as if you really want to step up your game to be a professional agency, you've got to commit to it. And of course, I think the theme arrived that I've got out of this conversation with you, is are you going to decide? Or are you going to dabble? Are you going to make a decision or are you going to dabble? And the Sitkins 101, people said "What are some of the Sitkins basics of selling? Of the selling process, or selling philosophy". Well, one of the big ones, and maybe this is Sitkins 101 Roger, is we've got to change the conversation.

Brent Kelly:

We've got to change the conversation from quotes and transactions, which most agencies that's really where they spend the majority of their time in conversations. It's quotes and transactions, as you mentioned. We've got to change that conversation from quotes and transactions to risk advice and relationships. You've got to change it to risk advice and relationships. And guess what? To do that, for what Roger said, is you’ve got to make a decision to do that. So what's going to be your decision? Roger, any final closing thoughts from you to add to the audience?

Roger Sitkins:

As a leader, it's all about the culture. And last night at dinner, the agency principal was saying "Well, we don't really have a lot of rules and things". And I looked at him, I said "You most certainly do". And his wife was sitting next to him and she said "What was that?". And I said "Well, he just said he doesn't have a lot of rules". And she said "Well yeah you do, because you lead by example". And he never asked people to do something he won't do. The culture is exceedingly clear. And the thing I love about his agency and so many of our private clients is that when the culture gets that clear, management becomes a lot easier because people know exactly what's expected of them.

Roger Sitkins:

And in his agency, he decided what his model was going to be. He decided what type of people he wanted. And when people vary from that, he has a conversation with them, either one of his leaders does, or he does. And then people are given an opportunity to either buy in or buy out. They self-select. And so it comes down again to decisions because this one's all about selling. Decide that you're going to be a sales machine, not a service machine. And when you make that decision, like you said, the bar's so darn low, you just start blowing away the competition. And as I always say, somebody in your marketplace is going to be the agency. It's going to be the category of one. Why don't you decide that's you?

Brent Kelly:

Well said. Well, as I mentioned at the beginning of this podcast, this is part two of four parts that Roger agreed to be with me and share his insights. Next week we're going to get into retention. So my guess is Roger, we may talk about what decision are you making? Are you going to have a renewal process or continuation process?

Roger Sitkins:

Absolutely.

Brent Kelly:

Just something to consider. And what does that mean for your new agents? So make sure you stay tuned and listen to the next podcast we release after this one. I'll just close with this. And I mentioned at the beginning, if you're an agency that really does want to make a decision in certain areas, there are three ways that you can work with us as Sitkins. And we make these as simple as we can, but certainly as intentionally focused as we can as well.

Brent Kelly:

Number one is you can attend one of our individual programs and we have producer programs. We have Sales Leader and we have Agency Leader programs that you can attend. And just see "Hey, what is this all about?"

Brent Kelly:

We also have our All-Inclusive membership, which allows you as an agency to have every client facing member of your team, whether it's sales, service, leadership, to all attend and be part of our training and coaching programs on an ongoing basis. And we've already seen incredible results with agencies in that.

Brent Kelly:

And then last as Roger just mentioned with this conversation last night, you could also become part of our Private Client program, which is a very close relationship. We could work with your agency very closely to make sure that you are doing the right things and we can hold you accountable and continue that conversation at a deep, deep level.

Brent Kelly:

So thanks so much for being a listener. If this podcast has added value to you, please give us a subscribe and a rating review, we'd appreciate that. And of course, you can visit our programs at Sitkins.com/programs. Roger, thanks so much for being with me today and we will see you next time on The Agent Leader Podcast. Thanks for listening.

Listen to part one of this series, The Four R's.