Grit Growth and Gumption with Tinsley English

00:00 - Brent Kelly

We're bringing some serious energy and enthusiasm on today's Agent Leader Podcast. I interviewed Tinsley English, who is a leadership expert, author and speaker in the world of insurance, who's going to share so many takeaways on self-leadership and having difficult conversations and just knowing thyself to lead others with excellence. All agency leaders, all people that are involved in influence which, by the way, that should be everyone. You need to tune in and take some notes on this podcast, enjoy. Welcome to the Agent Leader Podcast. This is the podcast for agency leaders to learn, to grow, to develop and ultimately become best version possible leaders, leading their best version possible insurance agencies.

 

00:50

My name is Brent Kelly. I'm your host. It is a pleasure to be with you and I am so excited. Today I have a very special guest. We have a guest who is an expert in the area of leadership. I can tell you from before we hit record, she's going to bring energy, enthusiasm, we're going to have some laughter and I guarantee you you're going to learn so many things. On today's episode I have Tinsley English I'll get the name right who is a speaker. She is an author who wrote the book Grit, Growth, and Gumption for Women, subtitle Three Keys to Lead Yourself and Others with Confidence. So I can't wait to learn more about the book, what's in the book, what you all can learn from the book. So, first and foremost, Tinsley, welcome to the podcast.

 

01:35 - Tinsley English

Thank you, Brent. I'm so excited to be with you and your audience today.

 

01:40 - Brent Kelly

Yeah, we're going to have a fun conversation and I just you know I'm so excited to bring your perspective, your unique perspective. I've been following you through social media. We've kind of had some back and forth and now we finally get to connect and get to use this podcast platform as a way to have some really good conversations. Share it, share it with other people. So, if you would, first and foremost I mentioned you're a catalyst for leadership. In fact I was mentioning before we started recording your LinkedIn profile has Leadership Illuminator. Ooh, I love that. So just if you would tell me about what you do and what you're trying to do in your book, and I mean just throw it all out there, tell the audience what you're all about, what you're trying to accomplish in the space, in the world and in leadership.

 

02:26 - Tinsley English

Sure. So I guess, Brent, the best way to start is just a little bit of background on me. I actually chose insurance as a profession. My mother put a lot of pressure on me towards my junior year of college to go ahead and decide a major. Her only requirement was that I had a job the day I graduated. I had an international business dreams. I was going to go to France, I was going to be, you know, a wonderful international business person and towards the middle of my junior year I really had not figured out what I wanted to do in that international business space. And there was added pressure in that international business space. And there was added pressure and at UGA, where I was going to school, they asked us to take a business elective. You could either take real estate or insurance and I was weighing my options.

 

03:15

I chose insurance because I'd worked for my uncle who was an attorney in high school, and there was contracts. There was a lot of legality to it. I thought I might want to go to law school at some point. So I chose risk management and insurance. And I called my mom, so excited you know, mom, I'm changing my major I finally figured out what I want to do? And she said, ok, great, like cyber relief, what are you going to do? And I said risk management and insurance.

 

03:39

And she was like Tinsley, that is going to be so boring, you cannot do that. And I'm like, well, caveat, 95% of the kids that are graduating with this degree have a job or an internship the day they graduate. And she was like, okay, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt. And I did. I got a great internship in San Francisco and then went on. I definitely had a job before I graduated. So kudos to those risk management professors for putting that hard sell and it's been such a great career since 2000. I've loved it and that's what's kept me in it the people, the possibilities, the opportunities, whether you're on the independent agent side or the large brokerage side or the carrier side, claim side, there's just so many opportunities. So that is kind of how I came to be in insurance and I like to say, like my friend Tina and I always talk about, we were always like the sparkly ones of our group. We like to bring the fun and the personality to the insurance world. So that is a little bit about me and my background.

 

04:44 - Brent Kelly

Yeah, I love it. Like I said, there's no doubt. There's like, what do you say? There's a sparkle there around that it's fun. I just loved your energy you bring and, of course, you've got vast experience in the space. And I will say this whether it's people I know that are part of our network and our relationships, or people are interviewing this podcast, you're probably the 1% that actually went into the insurance field on purpose, Right, Most people are like I stumbled into it or got roped into it and I couldn't leave. So you came in and you're like, hey, I want a job, I'm going to do this and this is where I'm going. So I love that. Well, I mentioned you know that you're a speaker and you're an author and, like I said, you're out, you're a leadership illuminator. So I'd love if you could share with the audience maybe more about the book or some of the things that you speak about to your audiences and why you're so passionate about it. I just want to get just that feeling of what fires you up to have these conversations, to write this book, to speak in front of audiences, to share your knowledge and information in this area.

 

05:45 - Tinsley English

Brent, I think the most important thing that you need to know, especially and I see this on the agency space all the time and it was where I was in 2014. I was quote unquote promoted without an instruction manual. So, as you know so many great account managers or customer service representatives they're individual contributors. They know exactly how to do their jobs and service their clients, but when they grow in their responsibility, their book grows and they obviously can't service it all by themselves. So they'll inherit a couple of CSRs. They'll inherit a couple of account managers. Train these people, show them how to do what you do, and showing somebody how to do what you do that comes with a lot of added responsibility, but not really an official leadership title. And so what I found for myself as a senior account manager is I was holding on to work and I was scared to delegate it because I was like these people, I'm not sure if they know how to do what I do or speak to my clients the way I speak to them or do a proposal, the way I know how to do a proposal, and what if they mess this up, what if it makes the agency look bad, there was just a whole host of things that were giving me delegation anxiety, and so I would just withhold work.

 

07:04

And then with withholding that work came the resentment from my team. It also came with added pressure on mine myself to keep adding these duties, and so it was just like kind of like an explosion where I didn't know which end was up and I couldn't give away the work, but I really couldn't keep it myself. So promoted without an instruction manual was my problem. And so when I fast forward you know, 10 years, a lot of different twists and turn between now and then into operations I see that there's a lot of other people that feel that way on the daily, and not just in insurance. In any industry, a service industry, where you are great at your job, you're given additional responsibility, you're given people in your charge without a leadership title, but you're not given any formal leadership training. So, long story short, this book was kind of an instruction manual to myself 10 years ago.

 

08:10 - Brent Kelly

Yeah, I, you know it's fun I heard this phrase a while back that you know we're best equipped to serve the person we used to be, and you know 100%.

 

08:21

It's like I wrote this book for me 10 years ago and I just you know, and you said that it just hit me. And you know part of that and the thing of course, in the insurance space is trying to figure out some stuff that didn't exist right back when I did this. And I wrote down to one of my favorite leadership mentors I mentioned on this podcast all the time. He's sort of known for leadership, John Maxwell. And you know John says leadership is influence, nothing more, nothing less.

 

09:01

And you said this you know, how often are we in a leadership position but there's not a leadership title? And I think there are a lot of people that don't realize they're leaders and they're leaders. And then you said they don't know what they're supposed to do. How do I operate? I don't have a manual. So I think it's first of all, kudos for you for taking that on, for providing something that wasn't there, and now it's there. So quick plug, go get her book. You'll learn a ton from that, all right. So quick plug for you there.

 

09:32

But I just think the other thing that's interesting in your book and the subtitle, and I want to hear your perspective on this. Here's my belief, tell me if you agree and then I think you will, because it's in the subtitle of your book. But I believe the hardest person to lead is the person you look in the mirror every day. You know there's the idea of yes, we want to be able to lead others with excellence, and how do we do that? But how do I first lead myself? And when you think about self-leadership, what does that mean to you? And what have you seen just in working with people, maybe in your own experience?

 

10:05 - Tinsley English

So you quoted John Maxwell. I'm going to quote Ken Blanchard. He said leadership is not about you, it's about investing in the growth of others. And I play with that a little bit in my book. And I say leadership is not just about you, it's about investing in the growth of yourself and others. So I plug you back in the equation. Because if you don't learn to lead yourself first, you are not going to have that influence to lead other people. You're not going to know how to lead other people. So I believe in that heavily.

 

10:38

I will tell you back in the day when I didn't have the instruction manual, I went out and hired an executive leadership coach. Her name is Sheila. She's just written a book. She's absolutely fantastic. I'm still close with her to this day and I had her do a 360 degree review on me and they interviewed my direct reports. They interviewed my producers. They interviewed my husband, who's also in the business, and I'm like Steve, I cook your food, so be careful what you say about me. They interviewed my mentor she's also my stepmom and when it came back, kind of the common theme was, Tinsley, they know you care and they know you love them, but you love them too hard and you expect things of them that are a little bit unreasonable. It was you lack empathy.

 

11:32

So, they know that I love them, but I'm not loving them in a way that they need to be loved or led, and that was a hard pill for me to swallow. So I like to joke. It's kind of like when you've got something in your teeth and you don't know it's there, but everybody else can see it. I didn't know what I didn't know and it took me hiring somebody to figure that out.

 

11:53

But guess what? Not everybody can financially support an executive coach. So, case in point in the book, when I talk about growth which that was my Achilles heel I talk about that empathy and I talk about emotional intelligence and you might not see what everybody else sees, but if you don't ask the question, you're not ever going to know and you're going to keep doing the same things over and over again. So that was the growth piece. That was my biggest challenge as a leader. I always had grit.

 

12:27

I grew up with a single mom and she started a business when my sister and I were young and I saw her have that grit. She could be resilient, she could be adaptable. And then the gumption piece is really about taking strategic risks and betting on yourself, and I would do that. But the growth piece was really when I wrote this book and I want to develop the system like that is missing in so many people, and to go back to your point about learning to lead yourself. Sometimes I tell people go ahead and start with chapter seven, like, just turn to chapter seven and start reading, because you're going to learn about growth really quickly, and these don't have to be scary terms like resilience and emotional intelligence.

 

13:16

You see these on social media, you hear them and you read about them, but do you really understand what they are? And so I wrote this book at an eighth grade level because I wanted people from whether English is their second language or you know whether they, they didn't go to high school, no matter what their education level was. I really wanted this kind of book to break down some complex concepts into simple terms.

 

13:41 - Brent Kelly

Yeah, I love all of that and it gives me a thought, question or something. I want to learn more from you on this because I don't know if you experienced this. One of the challenges of working with leaders in fact, I can use myself as an example in different ways is that we often and you said that what was it food in your teeth?

 

13:58 - Tinsley English

You don't know it, but other people can see it, your hair is doing something weird in the back, anything like that.

 

14:04 - Brent Kelly

You know, one of the challenges of that with leaders is to be able to have some vulnerability, and you said you've got that complete 360 feedback. I think everyone could use some form of that, because we all have blind spots. But it's interesting to me that a lot of people and there could be multiple reasons for this maybe they're just busy or whatever, but I think a lot of it is this fear of what am I actually going to learn about myself that I don't like? Or what am I actually going to learn about myself that other people don't like? And to be open with that and to be coachable, to say you know what? Because we all have that and I'm just curious from your viewpoint why do you think leaders resist getting that feedback about themselves?

 

14:50

Do you see sticking points? Do you see friction points? Do you see areas of you know I don't know? I'd love to get your feedback because it's such a critical area and the fact that you did it and you learn about yourself and now you can talk to other people. Why do other leaders struggle with that?

 

15:07 - Tinsley English

I think a lot of it stems from we're all trying our best, we're all trying our hardest. I think everybody goes into their job or goes into their career wanting the best for the people around them and they want to do their best. But it's that area that you don't know about yourself and it's admitting that you're not going to be perfect and that's okay. So I really do think it's that fear and I liken a lot to when you're growing up and you're going through your adolescence.

 

15:41

You have those growing pains at night where your legs are aching and you're like, oh, my mom would always say you're through growing pains and it's a painful time. But then you emerge out of you know that awkward seventh grade phase and you're a little taller. Maybe you've had your braces off, you feel a little more confident. Growth is scary. It's a scary place. It's hard to admit things about yourself or to try to recognize things about yourself. But that is where we need to double down on people that we're putting in leadership positions or anybody, and say, hey, this is going to be scary, we might be talking about something that you're not 100 percent comfortable with yet, but let's lean into that and we're all going to support each other.

 

So that superpower of vulnerability it's really key if you want somebody to lead authentically that, yeah, the word vulnerability obviously is critical and you know, I I'm guessing, I know from some of your comments already in your book you like quotes, I like quotes. One of my favorite quotes is from Jim Rohn, late grade Jim Rohn. He said for things to change, you have to change. And it's Jim Rohn voice and I think you know from a leadership perspective it's interesting and you know, you know this in the insurance agency space obviously based on your story as well that oftentimes you know we have people that either sell insurance or part of insurance. The next thing we know they're pretty successful. So now they're leading people Like well, how did that happen? And, like you said, there's no training manual on that.

 

17:08

And one of the things that you said with vulnerability is critical is the fact that it's okay to express to people that you don't know everything.

 

17:17

It's okay to express to people that you screwed up and made a mistake, and I don't know if you, I think you will, but I don't want to assume anything in this conversation. That's not fair. It's why we're having a conversation, but always, from my perspective, what I see in leadership, those that are unwilling to admit things that other people know they're not very authentic and trustworthy leaders, meaning the fact that kind of know the reality of the situation and you're pretending it doesn't exist, versus saying, for example, hey, Tinsley, in this area I think I might have let you down or I didn't do the things I should have been doing and I'm working on it and I want to you know that idea of building confidence with that. So does that resonate with you? Do you see that from successful leaders of? Maybe share an example, or you've learned of how leaders who have been able I think, one of the examples is my own team.

 

18:13 - Tinsley English

I encourage them to tell me when I'm not acting as my best self or my best leader and I've got a couple that they take that to heart and they will call me out from time to time. So it is establishing that trust with your team and saying, look, I'm not perfect, you're not perfect, we're all not perfect, but we're going to get better together and it is okay for you to, you know, call me out or whatever you want to say, because at the end of the day, it's going to make me a more supportive leader for you.

 

18:47

So, I think it's just letting your team know that you not only want them to call you out, but you encourage them to highlight when maybe you could have done something differently and say regularly like how can I support you, how could I have handled this differently? That takes actually learning about your team and how each one of them responds to you, to how they want to be led. So it's intentionally getting to know the types of personalities on your team. I'm a big proponent of whether it's Enneagram or Insights or any of those kind of tests Like I have a grit, growth and gumption assessment in my book which really kind of gauges your levels, but any other personality tests I encourage everybody to do that with their team so you know, like is this person more of a guardian or is this person more of a pioneer? Because if you figure those kinds of things out, you can plug them in in different situations, on projects or even just communication style. You learn how they prefer or they respond best to feedback, to encouragement, to incentives, anything like that.

 

20:05 - Brent Kelly

So the growth and gumption assessments in the book is there. Anywhere else they can find it or get it.

 

20:18 - Tinsley English

Yes, on our website you can enter your information and there is an assessment and a 21-day kind of thoughtful prompts to help you think about things that'll help you lean into resilience and that emotional intelligence and the vulnerability. We'll make sure we get the link there on our show notes so people can go check it out and do that.

 

20:35 - Brent Kelly

That would be great. And it's funny, as you said, that Tinsley just reminded me and you know I've done a number of assessments or tests over the years in different ways. I think you always learn something from it. But one of those that I've done, our team has done, is the Kolbe, and again I don't, there's a lot of great ones out there. But done is the Kolbe, and again I don't, there's a lot of great ones out there.

 

20:52

But you know, are you a quick start, fact finder, follow through, implementer and kind of rates you? And it's always interesting in one aspect you learn a lot about yourself. I'm a nine quick start, so I've learned, like with my team, and sometimes I'm like oops, a quick starts off and going again Sorry about that, right, like call me on it, cause I'll just like my idea, like if I could be thinking about an idea and I think that my team already not only knows the idea, but has it done it versus the fact of I might need to express this better. So it just affects how you communicate and you know. The other part of that, too is, again, knowing yourself. But then, of course, knowing your team, and I know I've had situations where, maybe prior to an assessment, I'm like this person's crazy or they don't understand things, and all of a sudden you get to know how they think or how they communicate. You're like, no, they're not crazy, they just are different than me and they think different than me and they communicate different than me, and now that I know that, I have a much better understanding of where they're coming from.

 

21:50

So I think that's really cool that you shared that. I'd like to learn more about. You know, you've had the opportunity to you know, obviously in your own experiences and now speaking and your book is like what's a success? I believe that you know replicating success is important. What's a success whether it's in leadership or any other area that you've seen been part of that either you're most proud of you want to brag about, but here's the biggest thing other people listening can learn from what are some things that jump out in your experiences of leadership, success of any kind?

 

23:08 - Tinsley English

Well I guess two things I'm most proud of is my 16 year old daughter and showing her that you can pioneer, you can color outside the lines, you can do things you've never done before. I think one of the biggest lessons for me writing the book is done is better than perfect, and with the book, that was one of those things that I could have taken two, three years to write this book. I actually wrote it in 60 days, which was like a night and weekend thing, but it really did pour out of me and I really did get a calling to share this. So I think done is better than perfect. Leading yourself first, and then that power of empathy, and then what I really wish I had known early on is build that powerful network of support, whether that is a mentor.

 

24:13

I think that we see people being over-mentored and under-sponsored. So find a sponsor that is going to say your name in rooms that you're not in. That is really important, especially for women, and the insurance industry is great for that and we have such a great way to network and connect with each other. I mean, in any given day in any given city in the United States, there is some type of networking event and you know, back in my day when I was coming up, it was all about like happy hours and that sort of thing. But you see people getting a lot more creative with coffee chats or pickleball. You see people getting a lot more creative with coffee chats or pickleball. So I really do love seeing people steer away from like let's just go sit in a pub or something like that and like let's do something active or do something like a leadership challenge where we get to see people for who they are. So that was a really kind of long-winded answer to your question, but just some tidbits about what I've picked up.

 

25:13 - Brent Kelly

No, those are fantastic and I want to go back to it. There was a couple of things you said that were great. It was great. The second part I want to get into, but I want to highlight. You said done is better than perfect. That's a writer downer I love writer downers because it's true, and I had a mentor of mine and I want to get to the mentorship sponsorship thing because that fascinates me but a mentor of mine who said this. He said, Brent, you can't improve a result until you go get one.

 

25:41

And it always resonated with me which reminds me of what you just said is that so often people are waiting for the perfect moment or for the thing to be perfect, and this idea that done is better than perfect is get it done, put it out there, learn from it, improve upon it, right, good and bad, Take the next step, take the next step, take the next step. We were talking, by the way, before we hit record of the fact about you know we all make mistakes, like the only way you make mistakes is if you're trying new stuff, and that's an idea of done is better than perfect. But I want to dive deeper with you. On the other part, make sure I said this right, so correct me if it's wrong. We're over-mentored and under-sponsored. Did I get that right? Tell me about that. Take me deeper there, Tinsley. I want to hear more about this.

 

26:29 - Tinsley English

And I want to be full disclaimer. I did not say done is better than perfect. I don't know who said it, but I thought it was brilliant. And then, over mentored and under sponsored is something I read recently and just thought it's in their industry or in their you know, within their company, outside their company, show me what you did to get to where you are. But on the flip side of that, is that sponsor.

 

27:05

So that's the person whether it's on the golf course or whether it's, you know, in a boardroom. You're not in that room. There's somebody in that room that knows about you and all the wonderful things that you can do and all your abilities and potential, and they are being your advocates. So what that looks like for Brent is Brent's a new producer and there's another producer who goes to an industry event and he's talking to potential prospects or clients and he is like, wow, this guy, Brent knows everything there is to know about, whatever it is cyber insurance or business interruption and he's saying your name and he's putting your name out there. You're not there, but you are there and like those are the types of conversations that convert to new clients, whether or can convert to a job opportunity, a career changing job opportunity.

 

27:59

So when I talk to young women I say a mentor is invaluable and you can have several types of mentors, but find yourself a sponsor to find yourself whether it's male or female, somebody that has got your back, somebody is that is going to be putting your name in the hat for those prime opportunities.

 

28:16 - Brent Kelly

I love it, by the way you said earlier. Well, this person said it and this person I have to share this. This was one of my favorite things I was at. I mentioned John Maxwell earlier. I was at a workshop with him several years ago and people, someone said John, you have so many great quotes and lines and he goes. Well, none of them are mine necessarily, because it all comes from something else and he goes here's what I've learned to do and I love this. This is just kind of fun to share. He said you know, the first couple of times I would say something I would say you know well, tens of English said blank, blank, blank. He goes after about 10 times. I say it's been said that, this and this he goes. Once you get past 10, 15 times, you just say I say Then you just own it.

 

29:00 - Tinsley English

Or I like to say yeah, you take something and you add or you know you can add your own flavor to it.

 

29:06 - Brent Kelly

That's right. It's right, it's always fun to do that. So no, and I want to compliment you and thank you for that sponsorship thought and the idea and certainly what you do in leadership, but certainly in female leadership. And you know, we all know, especially the insurance industry, it's still heavily male dominated. We need more great female leaders and professionals. I think it's such a great industry.

 

29:28

I always say this kind of on the side of so we're with producers in particular. We have leaders and producers and account managers, but the female producers are like kind of rock stars. There should be more of them. There should be. I don't and again, I don't want to just say it's just male, female, but like we've got some like man, they're so good, why aren't there more in this program, in this class? And personally, you said I have five kids. I have four daughters, one who's in college. So I have a passion for like hey, how do I help my daughters? Right, I mean, do things that sometimes, oh well, that's not really for me. No, go do it. What do you see in talking to the female agency leaders, or obviously agencies, with people throughout their agency male, female, whatever what do you see that maybe, from a female leadership perspective. They should keep in mind or think about, or maybe an area that you can help boost a little confidence sometimes maybe where it's needed in that space.

 

30:26 - Tinsley English

Well, I think it goes back to the sponsorship. If we have a low number of female producers, we need to make sure that the males are sponsoring that female producer, and it's hard to do something if you can't see that within your own organization. So one of my best friends is actually an agency owner. She is a producer and she encourages other women and to to try production. So I think you really have to see something to be something for a lot of people. Now there are some, some women that don't have any fear and they're just going to go do it regardless. But a lot of us, a lot of women, need to see that, see that example. And for female, you still see some of them. They're trying to do it all themselves and they're trying to still be, you know, in the weeds with the servicing of the account, and that's where that delegation and trust of their team has to be let go and they have to give that work and trust their team so they can get out and do what they do best, which is produce.

 

31:34 - Brent Kelly

Yeah, yeah, I love it. Well, obviously, we're. We're a big fan here at Sitkins of that. We talk about high performance teams and knowing your role and then having the same goal but different roles. So I love that and it's so so true. All right, let me ask you this when do you see, from your perspective, your viewpoint, leaders struggle the most? And I know this could be a number of things, but if you think back, like what's an area that I see in my perspective and maybe people you've talked to regarding the book or when you're speaking, you're having conversations with people where do you see some of the common or the top leadership struggles or challenges that people are facing and any suggestions or ideas of how to deal with some of those?

 

32:15 - Tinsley English

I think that giving constructive criticism is one that people have a hard time with. So I'm asking you to be honest with me as your leader, but I also have to be honest with you as my team member, that you know maybe something you did wasn't exact. There's a difference between doing it exactly like I like you to do it and doing it according to the standards or best practices. Uh, so I see people letting little infractions or little uh like maybe attention to detail or little things add up, and and then all of a sudden, it's like this huge issue where we've got a performance issue and it's like, no, that's not really the way it should be handled If you're a coach, like a coach is not going to let you just go fumble the ball all over the field for four quarters without pulling you out and telling you what to do.

 

33:11

So don't do that in leadership. Like it should be a daily coach approach where you're saying, okay, like you missed this, let's talk about it, get the, get that old red pen out, and and say, like let's go through this Cause I want you to do it better the next time. So I would say, like letting little things add up to where it becomes a much bigger issue is not as beneficial as every day saying hey, I'm going to let you know immediately if we see something go in, how it shouldn't go, so that it's a constant conversation of improvement.

 

33:52 - Brent Kelly

That's so important. Our senior consultant at the Sitkins Group, carrie Glennon. She's fantastic. She always says feedback is truly a gift and you know, if you think about that, you know this idea that if we're not providing feedback and, of course, in a way that you know, going back to the heart of a coach is, I want to encourage you, but I also want to encourage you by challenging, because I know there's more in you and I always think of whether it's a teacher or a coach or a leader, an organization that maybe has made you uncomfortable time to time, but they do it because they truly love, you Like and and you look back and you're like. You know, at the moment I didn't like that, but I'm so glad they had that conversation.

 

34:32 - Tinsley English

So this is not my quote like we're doing this again, but it was somebody that said failure is feedback, Feedback is knowledge and knowledge is power. So I love that one because I'm like that is exactly how it should be and I remember very early on in my career my desk was just a mess, like physically a mess.

 

34:56

And one day I get to work and throw my purse on the desk and you know, sit down, start firing up my computer and my leader called me into her cube and was like Tinsley, this is client information. This is important. You know your desk is reflecting, is a is a reflection of you, and it needs to be orderly and nice and clean. And so she was really great about always telling me kind of immediately like things that she wanted to see as improvement. So I just got really comfortable. I think the first time she did I was like, oh okay, but it wasn't such a big deal. So it's just getting everybody comfortable that we're all trying to get better together.

 

35:40 - Brent Kelly

Yeah, it's such a great example and I've got to share just one of my own Cause. I mean, I think it certainly helps the audience. You think about feedback. Some people know, many people know, this podcast, our CEO and founder, Roger Sitkins, also on the cover of the book. We're co-authors of the book. We do a program. I mean we run programs every week, multiple programs. We debrief every single session and I get feedback every single session and it's just part of the norms.

 

36:10

Some people are like, well, do you get like tired of always getting feedback? I'm like, no, it really is a gift. And sometimes I'm like, oh, I didn't know I did that or I didn't know that happened or I didn't see it that way. And all of a sudden the next time, slight improvement, slight improvement, slight improvement. And one of our favorite quotes that we share in our programs tends to go back to what you said about. You know, if we let things build up, is this a problem? Left unattended will eventually become a crisis, and I have way too many sports analogies. But you set it up because you said fumble, and it's like every day this person mishandles the ball and fumbles, and fumbles, and fumbles and we never say anything about it. And then it's like the big game and they fumble at the goal line and we're like I can't believe that happened. You're like right, you know.

 

37:02 - Tinsley English

So it's just it's a refining process. It's a refining process as you, for you, as the leader or the facilitator. It's a refining process for the actual, you know whatever you're trying to teach. So it's it's kind of like you've got to get over yourself and know that everything that people are sharing with you, it's just going to make you better.

 

37:23 - Brent Kelly

Yeah, and and for you know, for all the agent leaders listening, you know, talk about culture, culture, culture. It's such a buzzword out there. But, like I'd ask you, is your culture set up to where people are always challenging themselves, knowing that mistakes will be made but they're also going to get feedback to improve upon those, or is it that people are hiding a bunch of stuff? Oh, I don't want them to know that. I don't want no, like you know, eventually it will get exposed and instead of being exposed on a one-on-one meeting or in role play or in practice, it's exposed in front of your biggest client or biggest opportunity, and that's not where you want that to happen.

 

37:56 - Tinsley English

So I don't know if you agree with that, and I think, Brent, you know as well as I do, covid changed a lot of things and remote work changed just a lot of things. When I was growing up in the agency space, I was in a cube you know, a cube area where I had women that had been in the industry 30, 40 years sitting right right next to me and I could hear their conversations with their underwriters, their clients, whomever, and, and all that osmosis it adds up. But since we have so many remote workers now, if you're leading somebody or you're reporting to somebody or you're on somebody's team, it's up to you to. If you're doing Zooms, you've got to have frequent Zooms.

 

38:37

A Zoom shouldn't just be once a week and people have like Zoom fatigue, but they'll. They'll just cancel a Zoom meeting. Like if you have a meeting with somebody in person, you typically are not going to cancel it. Like you have to treat your Zoom meetings with the same level of respect, especially if you're leading somebody. Like they need you and if it's not Zoom, it's Teams or whatever you use to communication. It's great to just shoot a quick Teams message to somebody and say, hey, can we have a five minute conversation. So I want to make a plug for it Like remote work can work, but you need to establish for your team early on that we're always going to have open communication, no matter what's going on. If I'm, if I'm really busy right now, I'm going to make time for you later in the day. Because that transfer of knowledge especially with the wave of retirements that we're facing very soon, people have got to share that knowledge. There's got to be that transfer and the only way to transfer is time it's.

 

39:36 - Brent Kelly

Yeah, we see it everywhere and you're right, there's such a switch with with covid I mean, we all know it but I mean whether I mean some agencies have gone back, sort of, but there's still a hybrid and remote. I remember, you know, I'll travel and I'll work with some of our agencies and there was a an agency. I went and visited one of our members and I think I got there on a Thursday and I did a little bit of teaching and training and then Friday, I walked around and had some stuff and I was like this is a big office and I'm like, is it? I was like, wait, is it Saturday? Like no, it's Friday.

 

40:04

But you know, they get a couple of days a week to be hybrid and most people pick Fridays and it just it reinforced the fact. This idea that we're going to transfer knowledge just by kind of being in the same physical proximity Doesn't always happen anymore. And now you've got to be much more intentional and, like you said, that five minutes of hey I want to talk to you about something is much more important than you know so many other things that we often do as leaders. So I think that's very very helpful information.

 

40:33

All right, Tinsley, I have one official final question. It may be more that I'll make up, we'll see. All right, but one official question, and I ask this to every guest on the podcast, my favorite question to ask. Okay, and here's the question, and I try to make up different scenarios, but here we go. So later today, you're out for a walk. I don't know if it's a nice day there or not, but you're out for a walk. It's beautiful. Okay, perfect, perfect timing. It was a beautiful day. You want to go out for a walk and you're out for a walk and this crazy thing happens, where you happen to bump in to the younger version of you, the version of you, the version of Tinsley, who was beginning to start her career. And although this is kind of not a situation, this happens, okay. And so you bump into the younger version of you and the younger version of you looks up at you today and says, oh my gosh, it's my more experienced. Wise me down the road. What's the one piece of advice that you could give me right now?

 

41:35 - Tinsley English

Learn yourself, like learn who you are. We talked about this earlier, but I really do think learn who you're, learn who you are. Know yourself so that you can lead yourself, that is. I give that advice to my daughter all the time and I see her leaning into herself and knowing who she is and knowing what type of decision maker she is and knowing how she responds to challenges. So I would just say, take time to know yourself. Don't try to fit yourself into the mold of the person sitting next to you or who your parents think you should be. Be authentic to yourself.

 

42:18 - Brent Kelly

I love it, love it, love it. I mean, there's no wrong answer to that question for anybody to ask. But I, as you were saying, where I was just thinking about that how often we do try to shape or mold ourselves into someone else's vision for us and then sometimes it takes us way too long. You know, we're in our 30s, 40s, 50s and going, oh, this is really who I always knew I was and should do, and I never really embraced it. So I love that and everything that you are is based on your own.

 

42:49 - Tinsley English

You know natural traits, abilities, experiences. So even if you're trying, even if I'm like Brent is so awesome, I want to be Brent Like I can't ever be Brent, because Brent's grown up in a different area. Brent's had different advantages, Brent has had different disadvantages that I can't see. So you can't really be anybody else. You can identify things that somebody else, qualities that somebody else have that are admirable, but own who you are, trust who you are and just be who you are.

 

43:21 - Brent Kelly

Yeah, I have to share one more thing on this, because I don't know if I'm guessing this might be something you deal with as someone who's learning to grow and develop, and I talk to other leaders in my space or people that they really hunger for personal professional growth and knowledge.

 

43:35

I just want to piggyback  on one of the things that I've struggled with, and I still struggle with to a degree, is that you know, I read a book or listen to a podcast or, just like you said, I have a conversation with you and I go, oh, that's all the stuff I should be doing, or that's the person I need to be more like, and I think we can always learn from a book, a podcast, a video, a discussion, but when you lose yourself, that's the problem. That's what I heard and took from what you said there and that is so important. So I hope all the agent leaders took note to what Tinsley said there, because that's great piece of advice. All right, my final thing is this where can people find you, get in touch with you or anything else that you want to share to the audience? Before we officially wrap up, Sure, so I love LinkedIn.

 

44:19 - Tinsley English

I try to share thought leadership on LinkedIn. So, like my post, engage with me and I'll see you there.

 

44:27 - Brent Kelly

Awesome. Go connect on LinkedIn. Thanks so much, TInsley, for being on the podcast. I had a ton of fun. I knew I would. Great ideas and value shared, so we appreciate you so much. Thanks for being part of the podcast.

 

44:39 - Tinsley English

Thanks so much, Brent.